Ottawa, ON

--- Upon commencing on Wednesday, October 3, 2007 at 2:00 p.m.

               MR. VICKERY: Hello.  I propose we start.  There are still some people coming in but we should start so we don’t fall too far behind. I’m doing the job of the MC in the big room in this small room.  But it’s nice to see you all here.  It’s very, very good.

               We lost one of our speakers over the weekend, our Mexican colleague.  He couldn’t come at the last minute.  So we decided that because we are trying to encourage as much participation, as much interaction as possible, rather than try and add another speaker, we decided that we would actually remain with the three speakers and Ellen.  And Ellen was going -- who was the chair and is still going to be the chair, will also be a speaker. 

               So we’ve got four speakers anyway and Ellen is going to do both task.  And that should encourage us to have much more interaction.

               So, over to Ellen who is chairing this group. 

               Thank you.

               MS. MILLER: Thank you very much.  This session has a very hopeful title.  I’ll refresh my memory, Government 2.0.  I’m not sure the American government is in 1.0 yet. That’s why I think it’s hopeful. But it is a direction that we need to be talking about, engaging citizens to deliver better policy in a proved democracy.

               I was honoured to be asked to be on this panel and even more honoured to chair it.  And so I thought I would kick it off and then ask my colleagues, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting just before the panel, to introduce themselves, very Web 2.0.

               But I have a question. I want to know a little bit more about you.  I really am into this participative web world.  So, with a show of hands, how many people in this room blog?

--- Raise hands

               MS MILLER:  Oh, a very small minority. 

               How many people in this room are on a social network?  You don’t have to tell me which one.

--- Raise hands

               MS MILLER:  Aha (laughter).

               How many are on more than one social network?

--- Raise hands

               MS MILLER:  I’m very impressed.  I’m very impressed.  Good. Well then you understand at least the context of the world in which we’re operating even if the government doesn’t quite understand that context. 

               So, by way of personal introduction -- whoops, I didn’t mean to go there yet.  I’m Ellen Miller, Co-founder and Executive Director of the Washington D.C. based Sunlight Foundation. 

               I’ve worked in the public interest field for a number of decades that I have been in Washington and founded two other NGO’s that are involved in examining the mix of money and power and politics and influence in Washington.

               The Sunlight Foundation was founded just about 18 months ago to use the power of the internet, new technologies and the interactivity of the world of the Web 2.0 to create greater transparency for the operations of the U.S. Congress and to help improve the two-way relationship between citizens and their elected representatives.

               Thomas Jefferson, one of our founding fathers, said information is the currency of democracy. So, freedom of information or freedom for information is clearly not a new idea.  But what is different about information in this day and age is the time in which we operate. 

               The technologies of communication have changed dramatically.  In the past few years they changed dramatically at an amazing pace every single day.

               Two mottos guide the work of the Sunlight Foundation.  They marry old style conventional wisdom and new web thinking.

               The first is to paraphrase a former Supreme Court Justice:  Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants, electric light the most efficient policeman.  

               And the second motto that guides our work is that given enough eyeballs all bugs are shallow. Now, this is a technical term. But we like to apply it to mean that when citizens are watching and engaged with politics in the internet, which the internet uniquely allows them to do, elected officials have to pay attention.

               Some have said, I meant that literally, given enough eyeballs all the bugs are shallow.  But in fact we mean it figuratively about engaging citizens. 

               We are talking about the potential of a paradigm shift in how disclosure happens and how information travels, how information is collected and disseminated and what people can do with it, and particularly the ways people can use information to engage themselves in the process of politics, policy, the drafting of legislation, et cetera. 

               If you go back to the early 1800’s in America which was a rural agricultural society, the ways of connecting citizens were almost limited by their geographic distance from Washington.  There were no good ways for government information to travel quickly and easily to citizens. 

               But the advances in technology create a very different world for us.

               The U.S. congress ushered in the age of computer-disseminated government information in 1993 when they mandated the government printing office to make certain legislative and executive branch documents available online. 

               Since then public information has been made available and it has steadily increased.  Not all of this is thanks to the government.  But with the click of a mouse you can find what congress is discussing and voting on; the full text of bills; the video of floor proceedings and committee hearings; who is lobbying and how much they spend on it; who used to work for what elected official and who they work for now; who gives how much political money and whether they favour or oppose legislation; what interventions with regulatory agencies are being made and by whom; how much taxpayer money is being spent and granted. 

               But to find all that information you have to go to a myriad of websites and you have to know precisely what you’re looking for.  The advances made in this arena still lag behind the technological developments by leaps and bounds.

               This is a slide that shows THOMAS, the government’s official online database for Congressional information.  It is difficult to navigate, poorly organized and often doesn’t contain what the researcher might be looking for.  But it’s there and it was a start.

               Even worse than not having access to Congressional information, the text of bills, et cetera, is that other important information like committee hearing transcripts, Congressional research reports and chairman’s lists of earmarks, specially appropriated projects, are not available or are available way after the fact in which someone would be interested in.

               Even members of Congress and their committees have failed to use their official websites as information centres for their constituents.  This is known as the slide of the boring website. 

               Believe it or not we have found that the vast majority of members of Congress failed to list even what bills they sponsor, let alone what votes they take or who they meet with on their websites. 

               While some members are beginning to reach out and to begin to think about how to use their websites as interactive and use them to offer transparency for their activities, most are letting this revolution pass them by.

               Aside from the shortcomings of already available databases, Congress also fails to disclose important pieces of information.  Earmarks, personal financial disclosure, travel reports and other documents are still not put online in a searchable database even after the most recently passed ethics reforms. 

               The U.S. Senate still refuses to disclose its campaign finance reports electronically.  In fact that piece of legislation has been block anonymously for the past six months.  The perpetrator of the hold on the legislation just recently came forward.

               And so the funders of political campaigns remain hidden in many cases until after the election day.

               While we wait and push for Congress and the rest of the government to catch up with online information and the environment in which information is being made available, public information and public participation will rely on a convergence of government institutions and NGO’s in the U.S.

               Congressional information is now being developed and mashed up and made user friendly on a variety of non-governmental sites, many of which the Sunlight Foundation has funded or operates all in the last 18 months.  I calculated a few days ago that in our 18 months we have created as many databases and website to display government information.

               There are also projects underway that emphasize public participation in ways that rely on cooperation between members of Congress and outside groups.  A terrific example is this one. 

               In late July and early August a top Democratic leader in the U.S. House, Senator Richard Derbin, from Illinois undertook a unique and unprecedented effort to develop legislation with respect to broadband policy on two websites. It might be obvious, open left, a progressive site, red state, a conservative site, two of the leading political sites. 

               He was on the website on a regular basis over the course of a week, he developed videos, joint discussions and then promised to use the ideas that were generated by citizens and lobbyists and interested parties to draft a bill, which he will then post online for further comment before he introduces it in congress.  He called this Legislation 2.0. 

               And we are quite intrigued by it because it seemed to work in a very positive and respectful way and we think that there are other legislators who want to begin to develop their legislation in the same way and, in a sense, garnering citizen support and input at a time at which it had never been solicited before.

               We have also launched at the Sunlight Foundation a variety of experiments in engaging the public to help shine a light on the darker corners of congress.  This is an example of something we launched about 10 days ago, maybe just a week, working with another NGO called Taxpayers for Common Sense.

               This website, where anyone can investigate the details behind thousands of earmarks that are in two current pending legislative bills, a defence bill and a health and human services bill, and it is a fairly complex effort in which we ask members of the public to dig in and do some research for us.  Who are these companies?  What is their website?  What is the purpose and what can you find out about what they will be making for the federal government? 

               And more than 500 citizens have engaged in this process, which we find, in a week’s time, rather heartening.

               At present, however, this kind of interactive internet-powered participation is very limited in the U.S.  I know that the speakers on this panel have other examples from Canada, Germany, France and just sort of overview comments on how varied the public participation is via the internet.  Participative engagement is in mass demand across this new medium and politicians are only beginning to see this.  The public needs avenues to fulfil its desire for a more active role in democratic governance and better information.

               Let me close by just saying that Teddy Roosevelt, our twenty-sixth president, claimed that the best citizen in a democracy is one who is actually in the arena.  As more and more citizens seek not to just sit and watch the show, but to enter the game, just to step in and step up, they will need to use the weapon of choice in the legislative and political process and that is accessible and accurate information.

               Where legislators have had access to critical information, so should citizens.  Only then will an informed citizenry be able to act.

               Now, I would like to turn this over to our first panellist and I would like to ask each of the panellists to do their own personal introductions, just pretend you are blogging.

               MR. LENIHEN:  Hello, everybody.  My name is Don Lenihan.  I am the President of something called Crossing Boundaries.  In a nutshell, Crossing Boundaries is a national network of politicians and public servants and others across the country who have worked together over 10 years in various forums and ways exploring the impact of information technology on government and governance and how governments should respond.

               I am actually here today in a related, but slightly different capacity.  In the last year I have been asked to serve as the advisor to the Government of New Brunswick -- for those of you not from Canada, that is one of our provinces -- the Government of New Brunswick as their advisor on public engagement.  And in effect, the new premier there said to me, you have talked about all this stuff about using technology to engage the public, I would like to do that, I would like to be the first guy off the block, how do I do it, why don’t you come and help me?

               So I want to talk about that a little bit. And I want to say to you in advance that what I am about to say to you I usually say in three hours, so I will give you a thumbnail sketch of I guess where our thinking is going.  I am heading about five pilot projects there that are meant to experiment with different aspects of the public, some are the general public, some are stakeholders, and I will speak a little bit about the process a little bit further on. 

               I guess what I do want to say is that this, in my mind, is far more about engagement than technology.  Technology, to me, has always been an enabler, it is a huge and powerful one, I am part of that chorus of people that says it is that transformative force out here that is bringing us into another era, but it is not clear to me what that future era looks like.  And I think unless we do a lot of thinking about how we use the technology and what we use it to do we may go to a place we don’t actually want to be in.

               So let me tell you about the thinking we have been doing about engagement before I tell you a tiny bit about how we see the technology actually taking us forward on that.

               I have put up here on the screen something we call The Engagement Continuum.  And I want to say something about what it means in my mind for governments to engage the public and what I think they need to do to change how they engage the public.  If we want to improve democracy and the relationship between government and the public, there are big changes that are necessary.

               First of all, voice, decision, action, these are fancy words for a very simple, very deeply human process around problem solving. It works something like this.  If you are with some people and you have got a problem, first of all you sit down and everybody gets to put their stuff on the table, let us call that voice.  What do you think, what do you think, what do you think, what do you think?  And we have been doing this since we were sitting around the campfires in the caves, right?  There is nothing new about this, it is deeply human.

               Once we sit around the table and say what do you think, what do you think, what do you think, then we sort of say about the problem. So who is right?  And we start trading ideas and comparing evidence and exchanging things or maybe sometimes we make compromises, it depends what the problem is we are trying to solve.  But we move along and we make some decisions.  We think through, we exchange ideas, we make some decisions about what we think.

               And sometimes it stops there but very often we need to go another step.  Because once you sort of figure out the problem, well here is what we all said at the beginning and here is what we now sort of thing together is our diagnosis of the problem.  What is the third step? And so what are we going to do about it?  Let us move to action.

               And again, I want to underline this as a deeply deeply human process, we are all affected by it, you go through it with your kids and your families and your colleagues and all sorts of stuff.  But let me say this, when we talk about governments engaging in the public this is not what governments do.  Governments go the first stage and they rarely get beyond the first stage. So the engagement from most governments is what I would call consultation. 

               And what is consultation?  It looks a lot like this, somebody stands up at the front of the room, usually behind a table, and a bunch of the public stands on the other side of the room, usually lining up at microphones or handing briefs or whatever it may be and you come up and you get to say what you think,, right.  So we listen dutifully if we are from government or wherever it is.  And you come up one at a time and you say I think this and I want you to do this. And somebody comes up and says, oh no, I think this and I want you to do this.  I think C, I think D, I think E.  And we go through the whole long list of people and we travel around the country or the province or wherever it may be and we take all our stuff and we go back home or sit in our room as the committee and we review all this stuff, right.

               And after we have reviewed all this stuff, we make our decisions about what we think and then we make our recommendations to government.  We go through decision making and ultimately government probably make some decisions and acts on them and gets a plan and it goes through action.

               So government’s relationship to the public is largely one of voice.  We ask what you think.  There’s nothing wrong with that, consultation has been with us for a very long time and it probably will be.  Here is what I want to suggest is why would we think that everything fits into one box? Why do we think that consultation is the only answer to engagement?

               And not only that, let me tell you what it is starting to do.  As I would argue to you, that engagement is actually -- or that consultation on that model is starting to become hugely destructive to democracy.  What we don’t seem to realize or we are beginning to realize is it divides the public against itself.  If I’m the voice of authority who is going to make the decisions and you are out there and you want me to make your decision, look at the person next to you who is next to get up to the microphone and tell me their story. 

               Remember, there is going to be 40 people after you and I am going to listen to them all and I have got to make a decision.  So it is in your interest to try to get me to listen to your decision and the person next to you is a competitor, they are not your friend.  That means, you start to think how do I actually outwit that person?  How do I make my story more compelling?  How do I manufacture a crisis, provide exaggerated facts and figures, make this person look not very credible, etc.?  And we see more and more of this.

    In many cases there are lots of people out there who make a very good living advising people how these squeaky wheels so that ultimately they get the grease when it comes around to influencing government decision_making processes of this type.

     I think we see this all over the place.  I'm not saying it's the only way it happens, but that's the dynamic that we are creating in many places.

     And not only that, not only does it divide the public against itself, it divides the public against government.  Remember, I've got to go __ especially if I'm an elected guy; right?  I've got to go away and make a decision.  You guys have given me a list of 45 options, three of which might actually fit together.

     The rest of you, when I come back, your ox is going to get gored; right?  You are probably not going to be pleased with me, and that's not going to make me very happy. I might be looking for your vote next time around.

     So ultimately it's an increasingly uncomfortable process that creates not very useful solutions, that divides the public against itself and that ultimately divides the public against government.

     I guess what I want to say is if we are tired of the process, if the process is not working very well, what is the answer?  Change the process; right?  Change the process.

     We need to get beyond simple consultation, at least for many things.

     So why wouldn't we do something like this.  Why wouldn't we allow me as government to sort of say:  You know what, I'm tired of being the decision_maker here.  Why don't I become the facilitator?  Why don't I get you guys to put your chairs in a circle and start talking to each other instead of talking to me?

     Let's see what you have to say to one another instead of lining up and giving me your grief.  Tell each other what you think about the issue.  Tell each other what you think your solution is; compare your evidence and start arguing with each other.  And I will facilitate that dialogue.

     Let's see where you get.  Let's see if we can break down some of the differences between you. Let's see if we can find some common ground, some common solutions, some common objectives, some compromises and arrive as close as we can to something that looks like a position we can all live with.

     I'm not saying it's going to be easy.  I'm not saying it's always going to work.  I just believe we can do a whole lot better at this.

     And the way to do it is ultimately to give the public more space to work with itself.  Government can actually be a player at that table.  It can be a participant.

     People don't get to make crazy decisions.  Ultimately government gets to say, like any other player at the table:  You may be asking us for money, but I'm here to tell you we don't have it.  We just don't have it.  So let's go down another road.

     So you can have that dialogue with the public.

     I want to go one step farther and say sometimes you only need to go to decision_making, but sometimes __ and I think we are only beginning to realize this with the public __ you need to go a lot farther.  You need to go to action.

     Let me give you one example.

     We hear over and over and over again, rightly, that obesity is the new smoking.  Obesity is not only a bad thing, it's going to put huge pressure on our health care costs, it slows down people.  It's a problem, a social problem.  It's the new smoking.  It's the social problem of the future.

     What I want to suggest to you is that governments can't solve that problem on their own.  I mean, how could they.  Right? Or if they could, it's a world I don't want to live in.  Maybe they are going to regulate what you eat to the point where you don't get to choose.

     Ultimately if we want to solve a problem like obesity, governments may have a very important role to play but in the end individuals are going to have to essentially take responsibility for some very important part of that problem_solving.  We have to divide up the responsibilities differently.

     Government, as I always say, can build you a bicycle path. Government cannot make you get on your bicycle, at least not in any world I want to live in.

     So what we really ought to be doing is saying in areas where the public requires some kind of change in attitude and behaviour in order to solve the problem we are dealing with, we are going to have to move beyond simply discussion and deliberation.  We are going to have to get them to form and commit to an action plan and transfer some of that responsibility to them.

     That's not a small task but it's doable.  In fact, I would argue if it's not doable, we are in a lot of trouble because it's true on the environment, it's true on literacy, it's true on obesity, it's true on 25 issues I could name you very easily.

     So how do we do that?  How do we do that?

     Let me quickly recap where I am and then just say a tiny bit about what we are trying to do in New Brunswick.

     In a nutshell, again I think the whole thing is about transferring responsibility or sharing responsibility between governments and citizens __ and not just citizens; it can be stakeholders.  Let's just say the public in various forms.

     And ultimately if you want to engage the public, you need a process by which they will begin to actually work through the issues themselves together, with the facilitation of government or others, and even arrive at a point where they accept responsibility for new action and form a plan of action that they are going to deliver on for obesity or literacy or environmental issues, or whatever it may be.

     So how do we get there?

     There is no magic bullet here but I want to show you my second slide.

     There are not a lot of bells and whistles here.  I think the basic idea is meant to be pretty simple.  It's how do we take a process and map it onto that thing that I just gave you?

     This process can be infinitely flexible.  There's all kinds of different ways we are using it. Sometimes we are using some to intersect others.

     I just want to make a couple of points about it. That's all I have time for here.

     Here is what we would have done.

     I've been doing processes now for 20 years and here is what we did in many, many cases in the past when we wanted to talk to the public.

     You see those round circles?  Let's call them roundtables.  I've done more roundtables than you can shake a stick at.  Maybe some of you were at some of them.  Maybe some of you wish you weren't.  Maybe some of you have held your own.

     The bottom line is if you bring a bunch of stakeholders or whoever it may be to a series of three or four roundtables, especially in a country the size of Canada, it gets very expensive.  It takes a long time for people to travel there, think about this conference.  You bring them there.  It costs a lot of money.  You get them there one, two, three times to have a discussion on some important issue.

     The bottom line is in a case like that, you don't really get much of a discussion going.  It tends to be a consultation.  And that's not a bad thing.  But what we do is we hear what others think and some of us dutifully take notes and then go away and try to do the best we can in synthesizing this and maybe we send the report out for comment from them.

     What we don't get is we don't get them really deeply discussing with each other, working through the issues, and beginning to take responsibility for solving some of those problems and then forming an action plan for the simple reason that it takes too long.

     And this is where, frankly, I think the Internet __ and let me make this really simple; the technology we are using in these processes right now is very simple __ is potentially a bit of a miracle.  Maybe a big miracle.

     It suddenly makes it possible, especially in a country the size of Canada, to not only have essentially a few roundtable processes where you bring people together face_to_face and they can talk to each other, you can connect them together in this period of time (off microphone)

     And that's what we are doing.  It's very simple.  We are just using basically a website where I can moderate a discussion and the 30 or 35 stakeholders in the process will come together online whenever they want __ it's 24/7; it's password protected __ and essentially they get to start blogging, dialoguing, use the word you like, with each other.

     But they are not just doing it freely.  They are doing it in a structured process and there are questions they have to answer and they have to work with each other to work through a process.

     Just to give you one example, we have a process right now which is on skills development.  We brought together 35 stakeholders from across the province of New Brunswick.  They are from business and labour and post secondary education and a wide variety of things.  What we are making them do is we are making them get to the end point __ where I have "action plan" there, we are making them generate their own action plan that they have to work through together.

     What that means is they have to sit down and at the first roundtable they have to name six issues that they think that group of 35 people is well positioned to solve.  And government is one stakeholder at the table.

     Then what they have to do is take those issues one at a time and work through them together online as a group and decide what's the issue here.  Do we have it framed right?  What's the solution or the strategy we all think is the right strategy to solve this problem?  Who is best positioned to do that?  And ultimately is that person or persons ready to do it?  Until we get an accumulated list of 10 or 12, whatever it may be, actions at the end.

     And the real point that I want to make to you is when people go through that process, it is back to that decision_making process, they think through the issues.  They become committed to them.  They take responsibility for them and they sign off on an action plan that is their own.

     And that's a very different way for governments to do business.  It's not the government's action plan; it's theirs.

     I guess in the end what we are aiming at in this process really is a much more effective way of collaborating, that transfers responsibility to a group of people and lets them seriously work together and solve problems together.

     Let me just say in conclusion three simple things about the way I look at this process as evolving.  I think this is an enrichment of democracy.  We are doing things with the general public as well.

     The first thing is I think this is a way of genuinely enhancing our ability to collaborate across organizational boundaries, not just governments; governments and stakeholders, governments and the general public.

     Second, there is no guarantee.  I've heard so many times that people say the technology, the technology is inherently democratizing.  It's going to democratize us all.  I'm a deep sceptic about that.  I think it could do lots of things, good or bad.  It's neutral.  It's an enabler.

     I think we have to think as much about how we use those processes, that technology, to transform and strengthen the democratic processes we have as just assuming that the technology will do it of itself. There is no guarantee in my mind that that is true at all.

                 The last thing I want to say in closing is we are using very simple technology here, with small numbers of people.  We want to learn a lot about the processes, about the engagement process, about transfer of responsibility.  But the expectation is if we get good at this, five or ten years down the road we could use much more powerful technology that would engage hundreds or thousands of people potentially online in dialogues that are much more sophisticated than these and that would really move the yardsticks on democracy.

               So let me stop there and thank you very much for the time to make those comments.

--- Applause

               MS MILLER:  Thank you.  A remarkable condensation if that is down from three hours.  Thank you, Don.  I have lots of questions but let’s go through the rest of the presentations.

               Quitterie.

               MME DELMAS : Bonjour à tous. 

               Je suis Quitterie Delmas.  Je suis Parisienne, Française.  Je suis très heureuse d’être parmi vous, avec vous. 

               Nous sortons, en France, d’une campagne présidentielle, et ça fait du bien de pouvoir voyager et de se ressentir, enfin, une citoyenne du monde et pas que dans ses problèmes franco-français.

               Je suis ici pour vous apporter un témoignage sur ce qu’on a pu vivre, notamment, dans la partie blogger.

               Alors, je me présente rapidement.  Donc, je suis une bloggeuse politique.  Il n’y a pas encore beaucoup de femmes qui sont des bloggeuses politiques, mais pour moi, c’est une bonne manière de s’investir en politique quand on a, notamment, une famille et un travail, de pouvoir partager et porter ses convictions.

               Je suis également rédactrice sur un nouveau média qui s’appelle AGORAVOX, qui a été lancé il y a deux ans, qui a un million de visiteurs par mois, et qui, en fait, est né face à la défiance que les Français avaient vis-à-vis des grands médias classiques, les journaux télévisés, et qui, en fait, quotidiennement, il y a des articles de rédacteurs qui soient simples citoyens, donc, un peu de journalisme d’opinion, mais aussi des experts, des avocats, des médecins, des chercheurs, et toute une partie d’enquêtes qui se font à partir de données qui sont offertes par des internautes et qui sont ensuite traduites, et où il y a des comptes rendus faits par des journalistes.

               Également, je me suis occupée de la campagne d’un candidat à l’élection présidentielle en France qui s’appelait François Bayrou, qui a commencé la campagne à 6 pour cent, qui l’a finie à 18 et demi pour cent, et lui aussi a réussi à émerger grâce à internet.

               On ne peut pas ne pas parler de la campagne aussi réalisée par Ségolène Royal, qui a aussi perdu, comme François Bayrou, mais qui a été très innovante dans la pratique de la démocratie participative, notamment, dans la première partie de la campagne, sur justement Désirs d’avenir, qui était son site internet et qui a posé des questions aux citoyens, qui ont pu participer à l’élaboration de son programme.

               Pour re‑situer le contexte, donc, en France, il y a une grande défiance face aux politiques en général, qui ne sont pas aujourd’hui très représentatives de la population puisqu’on a des politiques qui sont vieillissantes, qui sont essentiellement masculins et essentiellement dans la fonction publique, et qui, donc, ne sont pas représentatives.

               On a aussi un problème avec nos grands médias classiques, comme je l’ai déjà dit, et effectivement, internet est une bouffée d’air frais pour tous ceux qui ont envie d’avoir de l’information juste.

               On a vu l’influence de l’internet dans deux événements.  Le premier, c’était le référendum sur le Traité constitutionnel européen, qui a été rejeté par les Français, alors que tous disaient au début de la campagne qu’il allait avoir 90 pour cent des Français qui allaient voter oui, 90 pour cent des parlementaires votaient oui, les grands médias disaient qu’ils allaient voter oui, et c’est sur internet via des blogs de particuliers qui ont démonté point par point la constitution, que, finalement, le non a gagné. C’était quelque chose qui n’était pas organisé mais qui s’est, en tout cas, révélé dans les urnes.

               Le deuxième grand moment d’internet, c’est normal, c’est des grands moments de questions nationales, c’était la campagne présidentielle, et je retiens quelques souvenirs.

               Le premier, c’est l’impact sur les citoyens.  On a vu que les citoyens, ce sont eux qui ont été les grands vainqueurs de cette campagne présidentielle puisqu’ils ont réussi à s’informer et ils sont devenus acteurs de leur information.  Ils ont pu comparer leurs sources et vérifier, finalement, qu’il faut avoir plusieurs prises sur une même information pour se forger sa propre opinion.

               Donc, on a vu un nombre de personnes incalculable se rendre sur internet, que ce soit des très jeunes ou que ce soit aussi des très vieux retraités, qui ont pris l’habitude, comme ils ont du temps, pour aller se renseigner sur internet.  Ils sont, donc, devenus eux-mêmes acteurs de leur propre information.  Ils ont aussi pu se former et aussi comparer les différents programmes. 

               Un nombre de sites incalculable sont sortis sur la comparaison des programmes, et finalement, qui ont permis aux citoyens d’au lieu de se référer par rapport à l’étiquette dans laquelle vous êtes né... vous naissez parfois à gauche, parfois à droite. Eh bien, finalement, c’est en regardant les programmes qu’on sait vers quel candidat se tourner, et ça aussi beaucoup joué pour le candidat François Bayrou qui était au centre, donc, ni à gauche, ni à droite, et qui, finalement, a pu faire entendre son projet via internet.

               Il y a eu aussi une capacité de fédérer les gens sur internet, les citoyens, qui se sont rencontrés sur des thématiques communes, notamment, sur la thématique du développement durable, qui était vraiment au premier plan de cette élection présidentielle, et on voit que cette problématique du développement durable a une capacité à fédérer de façon beaucoup plus large que les appareils politiques dont on a l’habitude.

               C’est aussi ce qui explique la diminution du parti des Verts et le fait qu’ils aient fait un score très, très petit.

               On a vu aussi qu’il y avait, évidemment, un contre-pouvoir, internet étant un contre-pouvoir pour les citoyens qui n’arrivent pas à s’exprimer, notamment, dans leur ville.  On voit parfois qu’on a quelques petits problèmes démocratiques pour l’opposition dans certaines villes des Hauts-de-Seine, et c’est intéressant de suivre des expériences locales. 

               Alors, si vous avez l’occasion d’aller voir des sites comme MonPuteaux, qui est une ville un peu fermée, ou MaLuempe (ph), où on voit qu’il y a aussi une voix qui peut être entendue grâce à internet et à des internautes.

               On voit très clairement aussi l’influence de l’internet sur l’exercice législatif, mais pour l’instant, ce n’est pas du tout organisé, et c’est un peu triste.  C’est ce qui me fait dire que les candidats à l’élection présidentielle se sont servis de l’internet comme un média classique pour faire du marketing comme si on vendait une lessive.  Donc, on a vu leurs programmes déversés du haut vers le bas. Donc, ça, ils ont bien compris l’intérêt, notamment, Nicolas Sarkozy.

               En revanche, pour faire remonter, on peut dire que François Bayrou a essayé de le faire, Ségolène Royal aussi, mais il n’y a encore pas du tout de concrétisation dans la vie publique et politique quotidienne.  Notamment, sur le site de l’Assemblée nationale ou du Sénat, aucun effort n’a été fait.